Chris Bentley

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About Chris Bentley

  • Rank
    Advanced Member
  • Birthday 23/10/49

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Kent
  • Interests
    Racing Sonatas! Running an 1886 Vintage Dutch Barge. Buying a suitable yacht to cruise Europe and beyond. Enjoying my Bus Pass to access London music from rock to blues to country, from 1960 onwards.

Previous Fields

  • Boat name
    BFG (Ex Chrysalis) Grietje, 23m Tjalk

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  1. In the interests of communication I have repeated my message to Jack here, it was first posted in the Web Matters Forum just now. Hope you all agree. "Thanks, Jack, for a nice fresh, clean site. I only hope we can persuade members to use it more. Chris" In the interests of the last sentence, I am about to use our Facebook page to do similar and re-draw attention to our website, particularly the Forums, where, I think, we are under-utilising a great asset. If you agree, join me and others in our Forum posts. Now that Jack has taken the trouble, entirely off his own bat I suspect, to give us a significant new look, we should support the site by increasing our participation. I appreciate the value Facebook, I really do, but our website has always been first class, a huge resource, a great means of communication and, I hesitate, but something more professional and serious than Facebook, befitting a now fairly senior Class Association and a National Class to boot. Good heavens, do you appreciate that the Sonata is a whisker away from becoming a "Classic Yacht" in terms of the Classic Yacht Association GB's rules? We have the age, well, some of us do. True, we are not made of wood with long overhangs bow and stern, nether do we have a gaff. But then, neither do some of the other "Classic" boats that I raced with across the Channel this Summer. It's a thought, isn't it? Dave Thomas would have been really chuffed to know that his fag-packet sketch for a 'family cruiser' could ever consider that. I might have a go at it. Me and my boat qualify on age, me especially, not sure how CYA GB might view my hull shape and rig, but, whatever, the parameters might be flexible! Chris
  2. OK, I have only given it about 10 days since I posted. According to the website, on all my posts, there are three more posts from me, up to ten views, no replies, including this one, headlined, as you see, Hello, Hello. Me, not that fussed if you don't want to talk to me, prefer you did, but up to you. Me, I am seriously trying to communicate with you lot. If I don't get any response, I will poke you via emails. I understand that Sonata matters are probably way down your personal priorities list, currently, as of this hour at midnight Saturday, I am working out the logistics of getting BFG lifted in Poole Wednesday and re-lauched in Brixham, Thursday, for the Southerns. Looks good so far. Concurrently I am running a business that demands 24/7/365 attention. If I can take the time and effort to post this at midnight, surely some of you out there can have the decency to reply to me. I live in hope. Chris
  3. So this is maybe what i mean when i say we need to use our website to communicate. The below is a message i sent as a reply from BFG to my Medway Sonatas after the RTI. Sorry if the pic is upside down, not idea why. But you will get the gist. I guess any of you North of Watford will have no idea what went on in that race. It was lumpy and very windy. As it happened, after Callista dumped her rig, we on BFG had a mini committee meeting on the beat back to Cowes and decided to gift the Sonata reserve mast to Callista, subject of course to NSA approval, which was subsequently granted, because, he, Chris, Callista, had already entered the Poole Nationals and we were no way going to prevent him from competing. He did. All good. So, your Association works, even when beating to windward in 30knts. You should be proud of that. We are all owners/sailors of Sonatas, we want to communicate with you, as per my previous posts. All we require is for you to communicate with us. Chris Thanks Paul and all,Have to say it was more of a war of attrition than a yacht race and we only got our names on the salver because we were last Sonata men (and ladies) standing. I think we may be the smallest (LOA) boat to finish this year - anyone with a head for stats want to check that for me? Thanks to my crew, Dave Hill, veteran of all our RTI campaigns who pulled everything in very hard and stopped the boat shaking itself to pieces, Santha Patel, first time around, and bit of a fiery baptism, but a New Zealand surfer, so quite at home on the foredeck up to her neck in lumps of the Solent, partner Sharon who magnificently steered downwind to St Cats and pulled out a lead of 5 minutes on our closest rival Sonata, (which yours truly lost when he took back the stick on the next leg) only to regain the lead by default when they dumped their rig over the side. As always, I am constantly amazed by what Sonatas will stand up to, BFG was in much better shape than I was and the joy of overtaking 36ft boats both upwind and downwind is one of the reasons I love this race, so thanks Dave Thomas for designing such a tough, enduring and competitive little boat.RegardsChris and SharonPS Congratulations also to Joe, our Sonata Chairman, who won his Class, not in a Sonata, boo, but some feat nonetheless in that race.Sent from my iPadSent from my iPad
  4. In the last couple of years particularly there has been a revolution in marine electronics. I caught up with this recently and was completely astonished by what information you can now get, real time, with an internet connection and a GPS antenna bolted to an iPad or equivalent. Add a couple of watch brands to the mix and you can not only navigate anywhere in the world by looking at your wrist, you can receive all sorts of information whilst sitting on the rail, ostensibly, checking the count down time. I last looked into this seriously some three years ago and those of you who read the posts at the time will remember that we altered our Class Rules to manage the technology then available. Now, its at a whole new level and, as a Class, we should be aware of this and, if necessary, adjust our rules again to account for it. I am not saying that any of it would necessarily provide a significant advantage on a Sonata race course, neither am I saying that anyone might be tempted to use it to gain advantage, albeit they could do it without anyone else realising what they were doing. Its just for the Class to be aware what is out there at very little expense and which way we might want to jump as a pure one design Class with an ethos of maintaining at least some of Dave Thomas's concept of a "family cruiser", toilet, cushions, etc. Comments please. Chris
  5. At the Poole AGM I sort of volunteered to become the Class Archivist. Not quite sure how I did that, it was a bit like becoming Chairman before. It just happened. I guess I am reasonably qualified as I bought BFG in the early 70s when Mike Owers was Chairman and he used to publish a six monthly Newsletter and send it out by snail mail to all the Class members. I still have those papers and a lot of other stuff too. There are some copies on this website, but theres more, a lot more. When I was chair, one of my stated ambitions was to try to trace every Sonata ever made by Hunters. Failed miserably, so maybe this is unfinished business. The major difficulty was that the boats get sold, often change names, vanish off the Associations radar, then pop up again with little to link them to their previous life apart from the hull number. Mike Owers did a cracking job recording what he knew in the 1990 Association Handbook. I have that. Of course it is wildly out of date, undoubtedly some Sonatas have gone to the great Sonata grave in the sky, more likely, the deep, as per a hull in Hong Kong which, in 1990, was occupied by a family of 14 who hot bunked it as living quarters in the typhoon harbour. But I bet a lot of them are still out there somewhere because, as we all know, they were built to last. So the first task is to update my list of hull numbers with current owners as far as poss, and that's where you come in, I need to know who owns what now. Yours, others in your Club or area, who you bought from, who you sold to. I will publish the list anon, meanwhile, please prepare your research. Thanks. Next, I can start adding an individual boat's history to its number, interesting and maybe valuable to you and any future buyer. Bit of a task, this, but I have modern technology to hand, so not impossible. Alongside this, and maybe even more valuable to the Class, prospective buyers, is a collection of history of what our little boats have achieved. Just the Yarns on this site give a flavour, but there are undoubtedly a lot more stories of derring do. A prospective buyer into the Class weighing up a Sonata v, say, a J24, might like to know that ours stand up in 40knts and if knocked flat, won't sink (sorry, J's, i know you have addressed this now). But you follow my drift. Here's another little gem to consider: we, some of us, may own a "Classic Yacht" in terms of the British Classic Yacht Club's definition of such in their Class Three category. I happen to have caught up with this having just raced a Cat 3 one, a Rival 34, in fact, the first one built, to Brest for a six day festival, which was awesome. Maybe, maybe not, but, we certainly own some old ladies, theres never ever going to be another Sonata built, the moulds have been destroyed, mores the pity, so our collection of boats is fairly unique, worth preserving by all means possible. There are other old One Design Classes out there, the Solent based X Class, about 100 boats strong, has a cult following, sell for 10 times a Sonata's value, and its just a wooden daybook, a nice one, but not that special, sorry, X's. The Portsmouth Victory Class is still going strong, wooden clinker, and they have revitalised it by taking a mould off an existing wood hull and building fibreglass copies which race in Class, because there are few original Victories left. Compared to these two examples, and there are more, we have a much better proposition. You can buy a Sonata for peanuts and with a very small investment, turn it into a very competitive one design with seriously great racing, plus a boat you can cruise on in most weathers. What other Class offers you that? I think we have a collective responsibility to look after our Class. Thats mostly what this is about. Hope you can help me do that. Chris
  6. Hello all fellow Sonatas. I am just wondering if anyone will read this soon, or at all, because the post before this one is dated 2015. Lets see. You might remember me. I was your Chairman for four years before Joe and I have just returned to the fray after a wee rest of 3 years with BFG by doing the RTI and the Poole Nationals. We are about to do the Southerns, too. I have to admit, Sonatas are still a passion and I have enjoyed meeting all you new folk who have bought into the class since I last sailed and renewing old friendships with those whom we have done battle with in past years. Didn't much enjoy getting thrashed on the racecourse by strangers, but thats my fault for not keeping up practising. It is really great to see so many boats out with a lot of young crew, especially as they are a bit good at it. And well done Poole for organising such a brill and professional event. I have done a few regattas in my time and that one counts as one of the very best. Hats off, Poole, Joe, the team, the sponsors and especially hats off to the Sonata Class who, as I have always said, not only provide the best bangs for buck of any class I can think of anywhere in the world, they do it with style and at a very high level of racing. Long may it continue and prosper. However, to the topic of this post. I always tried hard to communicate with the Class when I was in charge. You can find a mass of posts and stories from me buried in this site. We now have the Facebook page too and mini websites like the Nationals one pop up and very quick and useful they are too. But this site, and a very good one it is too, thanks, Jack, should be more used in my humble opinion. Thats up to you guys. No input, no communication. How can we make it that you all scan Sonata.org.uk much more regularly and use it more? How can we make it like your online banking/Facebook which you look at every day? (week? you do look regularly, don't you) ? Suggestions please. To start something off, I have separately posted a couple of new topics here. Please join in the discussion, I don't want to end up a lonely old pensioner talking to himself! Chris
  7. Hello, Fleet, Happy New Year! We ought to bring the Rule Changes discussion to a close now. Thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past three months. This post is my take on the way forward. I have, I hope, taken account of your views and spent some time thinking it through, including researching how other National and one-design Classes manage it. What I propose below may not be word-perfect, and I am happy to take your comments on the detail but I hope you will agree with the intent. These discussions started with the two (carried) motions at the 2012 AGM regarding crew substitution and a corrector weight as an alternative to saloon berth cushions. The decision was that we remove Rule C21b (crew subs) and allow a corrector, weight to be determined. Would someone like to weigh their saloon cushions and tell us the result? Thanks. Then we can enact these two changes. The discussion of Rule Changes in general then broadened out and threw up a whole raft of topics for two reasons: Technology (instrumentation, mobile phones, hi-tec rope) has improved hugely since our rules were drafted. More relevant, it is affordable and, in practice, any of us with a smart phone have a lot of it in our pockets anyway. Our Closed Rules (“if it doesn’t say you can, then you cannot”) which are a product of our National Class status, appear to exclude items which everyone carries aboard/adds for safety reasons or are open to silly or confusing interpretations. However, as Martin Hartley, our Technical Officer, pointed out (Class Rules Changes Post) the current rules were the result of extensive revision (mainly by him) to retain our National status and conform with the ERS format and I said in reply “the last thing we want to do is jeopardise our Class Status”. I think we all agree with that. Martin admitted that a couple of topics may have been mislaid or forgotten in the process and we can correct those without further ado. I am also acutely aware of Mark Taylor’s “Notice to” post which seeks to re-assure potential Sonata owners that the important message is that “they mostly sail at the same speed so racing is very close and generally conducted with great sportsmanship”. So, we need to tread carefully. Edward Harrison (Class Rule Changes post) came up with two very simple additions to the personal and equipment lists, C3 and C5 which said, respectively: “All other personal equipment is optional” “All other equipment is optional, subject to restrictions in C”. (ie the Mandatory list). And then added a heading for us to prohibit anything we felt should not be carried aboard whilst racing. Although this neatly avoids the need to examine in detail the content and wording of permitted items, I am concerned that for ‘other equipment’, it enlarges the scope to such an extent that it may take the rules outside the “Closed Rules” definition, which we don’t want, and implies that we would have to think hard about the ‘Prohibited’ list to exclude any kit which could contribute to performance. On reflection, my suggestions to include an “Ethos” statement would also be open to problems of interpretation at any protest hearing. Our intentions in formulating rule changes therefore are: to update them to allow for new technology to clarify the Closed Rule interpretation under ‘personal’ and ‘equipment’ not to exclude the carrying of additional safety kit whilst racing to (mainly) make the changes ‘optional’ so that individual owners can choose depending on the type of racing they do. In making these changes we must not affect our strict “One Design” status or change the original Sonata concept of ‘affordability’. So here are the proposed changes: (wording changes/additions in italics) C.3 PERSONAL EQUIPMENT C.3.1 MANDATORY The boat shall be equipped with personal buoyancy for each crew member to the minimum standard ISO 12402-5. OPTIONAL All other personal equipment is optional C4 ADVERTISING – no change C.5 PORTABLE EQUIPMENT – delete the word PORTABLE (a) MANDATORY 1 – 4 (Fire Extinguisher, Bucket, Anchor, Hand Pump) – no change 5. Marine steering compass with a minimum of 60mm card. Correctly installed and adjusted. Replace with: A minimum of one fixed marine type compass of magnetic card or digital read out type capable only of instantaneous readout. 6. Two saloon berth mattresses made from foam rubber or similar and upholstered in fabric or vinyl. Each mattress shall be not less than 1830mm x 600mm x 100mm. The mattresses shall be positioned on the saloon berths, one to port and one to starboard. OR A corrector weight of x gms positioned where we decide 7 – 8 (Galley, Toilet) – no change 9. A minimum of one marine hand held VHF radio. (delete hand held) 10. (Outboard) – no change 11. Heavy items: Anchor, Outboard Motor (above) and any heavy additional equipment (below, eg batteries) shall be secured against movement in the event of a knock-down. 12. The Notice of Race and/or Sailing Instructions may proscribe safety equipment in addition to the minimum standards contained in the Class Rules. OPTIONAL 1. Electronic or other devices to record, measure and calculate; speed, distance, water depth, wind direction and speed, water temperature and position. Any device maybe linked to another. 2. Additional safety devices and equipment to owner’s requirements or to comply with local regulations 3. Additional equipment or fittings that contribute to the practical and seamanlike operation of the craft without enhancing performance or contravening other Class Rules. I hope the intention of these changes is clear and that, particularly 2 and 3 above, remove ambiguity about whether or not it is legal to carry additional safety kit whilst racing, from flares to a liferaft if racecourses or conditions warrant it and winch handles, wash boards and a spare plug for the outboard, because we all sensibly do anyway. The change to allow any combination of electronics is because the posts showed that some owners wanted it. Others felt it would be of little or no benefit. It is down to the type of racing individual owners do. So it is included as a specified option. In any event, policing whether a crew is using the Navionics app on their mobile in one hand and getting COG and SOG off the Garmin in the other is an impossibility. I have also amended the compass rule for similar reasons. I have left the guardrails rule alone. I hope you are all in agreement. Chris
  8. Mike I have messaged you personally about this - great idea - if you want to call me for more info please do. M: 07866 593 171
  9. Well done Mark, and thanks. You nailed that one.
  10. Ha! Thanks, Richard for the nice comments about our downwind performance - I will pass it on to Max, our foredeck, who is mostly responsible. Yes, you and I have discussed your IRC rating before and not come to a conclusion. What I am going to do is throw this open to the Class. I have a vested interest. It could be a bit unfair for me to put forward my personal views. I was the one who canned the separate Sonata Class start in the RTI. I thought at the time for the best of reasons. I still think I was right to decide that. For those not directly involved, I asked ISC to let Sonatas race RTI IRC in an appropriate class start but with the proviso that we retained our, rather nice, salver for the first Sonata home from that start. What you, Richard, are asking, if I understand you correctly, is that you be placed as a Sonata in the 'Race within a Race' for Sonatas, albeit with a different IRC rating from the rest of us, as, in that context, you were a Sonata. We all have to be rated IRC to enable us to compete in the RTI. What the Class should decide is whether, actually, you are a Sonata, or something else. If yes, then ok, you can ask for a place to be recorded in the 'Race within a Race'. If not, then not. What is clear is that the first Sonata home gets the Salver. After that, I am prepared to take advice, as stated, from the Class. Your comments please! And, Richard, thanks for your prompt responses to my other posts. Nice to know someone out there is watching and getting involved. Chris
  11. Please read the instrumentation one above too, because, on my phone, I can do even more, so this isn't just a discussion about the abuse of phones for 'outside assistance'. There has been a fair bit of press coverage about mobiles used to advise competitors of conditions up the race course which, in top-level racing circuits, has resulted in stringent rules being imposed. However, I can't imagine one of my fellow competitors ringing me whilst racing to advise me of a 20º wind shift on the next tack, neither one of my shore team, (if I had such a thing), even if I could unearth the thing from it's waterproof pocket in time. As far as Sonatas are concerned, we could easily cover this with the "fair" rule (see main thread on Rules). So banning the carrying, or even use (see below) of mobiles whilst racing is, for us, I think, OTT. Obviously, an element of trust is involved, but, as previously stated, we are good at that. Plus, practically, it is impossible for the likes of us to monitor it. On the plus side, carrying a mobile has a potential safety advantage. It's another link to the shore/rescue services. They don't like it used thus, but they do, and have, saved lives from a mobile call. And it is also a camera and a movie camera. Thanks, Jo Cross for some nice pics of BFG you posted on Facebook. Pretty impossible for me to have had those any other way. So, on that basis, I suggest we consider mobiles as 'Personal Equipment' under the rules as proposed in the main thread and allow them. Or rather, do nothing to restrict them. However, I admit to having used my mobile on deck for calling a layline, weather, navigation and avoiding shipping. (not whilst Sonata racing, I hasten to add). I can do all of the above because I have a compass app, Navionics chart plotting, built in weather, as well as online when in range, and an AIS based tracker which tells me all I need to know about shipping near me, or the other side of the world, for that matter. It pretty much doubles up a fairly sophisticated electronic nav system. You need dry fingers and good close up vision to work it, but work it does. Again, I don't think it necessary on any of the above to ban them. If anything, they add another layer of safety information. But if we are discussing the possibility of allowing linked instruments, we shouldn't forget that mobiles with the right apps actually already provide some of this, and no doubt will provide more soon, and for a stupidly small cost. Buy an i-Pad and you have the same on a bigger screen than a £1000 chart plotter. AIS 'A' and the equivalent marine kit to run it costs a minimum of £1700.00. As Sonatas, all I think we need to do is be aware of the technology and, if it developed in some way that might be considered possible to enhance performance, as with instruments, take a view. Currently, I don't see anything out there yet which I think significantly does for us. But you may know better! Please share if you do! Chris
  12. Bit more complex this one. We have discussed wind instruments. I am convinced that we allowed GPS, provided it wasn't linked to wind. (Martin, is this another one that got lost in the wash)? Wind, without the link is, in Sonata use, not much use. I can see my Windex even at night and all a screen gives me extra is numbers to look at instead of a mechanical direction arrow. Ok, it also can give me speed at the masthead, but, apart from the warm glow I could get from surviving a 40knt gust, I actually have a fair idea when to change sails which a wind speed read-out won't add to. However, link wind to GPS and you get COG, SOG (from the GPS anyway) plus apparent wind speed and direction and, if you really want to get into electronic links, throw in a fluxgate compass, a Tack tic sensor option, and you can have the above in relation to the ships course as well as the wind direction. Bolt that to your autohelm and you will go upwind like a roasted stoat. OK. I am being silly, but the point is that we could allow this, and a lot more, chart plotters, AIS, radar, radar??? no, really silly, and today, you can link it all together and the boat could sail itself. But we don't do that when racing. Our Sonata racing is almost entirely windward/leewards or river/estuary/lake sailing where the more sophisticated electronic aids are of limited use. So, we allow, insist on a compass, ok. We allow a depth sounder, ok We allow a log, ok We allow a Tack-tic without the wind sensors or fluxgate compass or GPS linked in which gives us all the above, but in a nicer way. Do we, given the ability of say, the Tack tic, to link in other data, if people want to, on the presumption that in effect, the enhancement to performance would be negligible or non existant, given our style of racing? In fact, maybe detrimental to performance with masthead cones and kit plus batteries and maybe wiring, but if it turns skippers on, why not? Or do we revert to our established stance and say no, partly on the basis that it would inevitably cost money and we don't do cheque-book sailing? Personally, I don't believe that linked, and/or more instrumentation would enhance my racing experience, or improve my performance. In fact, it would probably distract me. But, if others want to have them, I have no objection. Your comments, please. Chris
  13. Second separated topic. Not only should we allow, it should be mandatory that everyone carries a working VHF. And preferably, but not mandatory, a fixed and a handheld for reasons of range and as a back-up. It is a primary piece of safety kit. So, minimum of one working set, thereafter as many as you like, either fixed or portable. Chris
  14. Hi First of my separated out topics for discussion about rule changes - refer back to the previous posts for history. Lets get more posts on each individual topic before we think about possible rule changes. I think Dyneema and webbing straps make sense for the reasons I previously stated. 4mm Dyneema has a break strain of nearly two tonnes. If you knot it, that reduces by about 30%. I cannot imagine a worst case scenario (towing an 18 stone crew member attached by his lifeline (stupidly, but whatever) to the guardrail) breaking it. More likely, you would pull the stanchions/pushpit out the deck. There is no evidence it is subject to UV degradation. Anyway, I would include the rule that it had to be sheathed with braided polyester to prevent chafe and protect it from UV. (Dyneema is just the core weave). I have some knowledge about this having owned a rope company. There are 40ft yachts out there using Dyneema and it's derivatives for standing rigging. Webbing straps are so much more comfy I cannot imagine helming without them. Run the Dyneeema from pulpit to pushpit, as we specify with wire, and the strength is built-in. On the other hand, wire, as Peter says, can invisibly degrade (inside swaged ends mostly) and if it separates, the exposed strands are pretty lethal. Lets take advantage of this technical advance and allow it. Chris
  15. Hello, all, Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic and particularly to Martin who has provided the answer to some of the 'missing' rule changes. Two conclusions have, in my view, emerged: Firstly, the last thing (sorry, bad phrasing) we want to do is jeopardise our Class Status by mucking about with the Rules unnecessarily with additions and re-phrasing if we can avoid it. This would involve, I guess, re-submission to RYA and checks to see if we still conformed to ERS. This discussion was instigated by Peter who identified an ever-increasing number of anomalies some of which were sensible, radios, and others involving detail of interpretation and phrasing. Peter admits, (above) that an 'Ethos' clause renders a lot of his detailed points unnecessary. Once started down the detail route, we could spend weeks pouring over phrases and interpretation. Do we really want to do that - 'if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it'. Secondly, it is obvious that individual owners have added to their boats in possible contravention of the "Closed Rules" (If it doesn't say you can, then you can't) but, as Martin says " has anyone ever experienced a protest of indeed any disagreement of any kind due to the supposed inadequacies of the rules?" When blatant rule manipulation has happened eg - sail/crew swaps - we have stamped on it. When Tack Tics arrived, we permitted them, after consideration. (Ok, we have since lost the rule, but we could put it back, but see below) This is a good example. Mark Taylor, when scruteneering, approves a Tack tic compass provided our rule about compasses is also complied with. (see Digi Compass Post elsewhere in this Forum). A Tack Tic can definitely be considered as performance-enhancing kit. On the other hand, glassing-in strong points to secure your anchor/battery/outboard won't make you go faster, but it could, very sensibly, prevent damage when knocked down - Peter's suggestion. The way forward, I think, is to separate out any additions/mods/kit which are fairly obviously 'performance enhancing' from additions/mods/kit which are not. Patently, there will have to be an element of interpretation as to where this line is drawn and that is what I was trying to get at with 'Ethos". Peter's definition above is close. I think a slight re-phrasing to include 'in contravention of the spirit of the Class Rules to ensure fair competition' or some such might work. After all, the Racing Rules include a "fairness" rule which over rules all others. And the Sonata Class, to date, have been rather good at being fair. The actual wording, as proposed by Edward above, under OPTIONAL, with a re-phrased addition to include "fairness" would do it, I think. That way we could totally avoid a great deal of detailed definition. Does anyone have experience of how other classes manage this situation? Then all we have to do is consider what additions we might want to make to include the 'performance enhancing' items. I suggest we take these one by one as separate forum topics, and I have started new posts on a couple, because there will be opinions on each and, also, more and more items will arise as technology leaps ever onwards. I have also separated out the Guardrails and Safety items for the same reason. If you agree with me, let's try to conclude this post with your comments on my thoughts above and move to make a minor adjustment to the wording of the Rules. Or not. I await the next round! Chris